I am not The OOP, OOP is u/themachucajr
My wife friend-zoned me and wants a platonic “companionship”
Originally posted to r/Marriage
TRIGGER WARNING: possible controlling behavior
Original Post May 7, 2024
My wife (35f) and I (35m) have been married for 15 years and we've been together for 20 years. We have two kids (12,14) we absolutely adore and work tirelessly to provide the best possible life for them. For the past 3 years, things have been somewhat bumpy. I understand that our kids are at an age where they require a ton of our attention and resources with school, band, club sports, and other extracurriculars and I'm aware of the physical and emotional toll that can have on marriages.
However, for these past 3 years, my wife and I have had very little intimacy and very little sex and we've been trying very hard to work on that aspect of our relationship. This past year has been the most difficult and by far the darkest year in our marriage. We didn’t talk very much, we essentially became roommates coparenting our kids under the same roof. It was very depressing and very demoralizing. It was to the point where we began contemplating divorce and it became very dark and gloomy in the household because of that.
We began seeking help with both individualized therapy and couples therapy and it seems to have helped some. Little by little we started to get along and started to have deeper conversations about what our marriage looks like and what we would love for it to look like. This is where it gets tough. As time passed, my wife started to tell me she no longer was "in love with me" and that she only saw me as a "best friend." That she only loved me in a very platonic way, and this was one of the main reasons she didn’t have any desire for intimacy and let alone sex. This was very shocking to me and quite frankly, I was devastated. I because angry and depressed and I couldn't fathom the thought that I was no longer wanted or desired by the person I felt completely in love with. Things began to deteriorate again and not long after, we were back to square one. I sat down with her one afternoon and had a heart to heart and began to ask questions about where the root of this problem lies, and her answer was "I don't know" and that "I have built up resentment towards you but I don't know where it stems from." As you can imagine, this provides very little to no insight into how to approach this.
I'm puzzled, I'm frustrated and I do not know what to do at this point. Currently, we've arrived at a place where she says that she has no sex drive and no desire for intimacy or connection. She says that all she wants is simply "companionship" which basically means our coparenting roommate dynamic. I asked her what I could possibly do or what is it about me that is so unattractive or undesirable and she her response is always "I don't know." She stated that she does "love" me but its not the same. That she has been feeling disconnected for years and that our marriage just takes up too much work. Her focus is only the children for now and that my coparenting contributions are "meaningful" to her in our home.
I'm at a loss and I'm mainly venting about my frustration. It's tough to realize that the person you love has no feelings for you. I feel like at this point I'm only here to contribute financially and as a parent. I feel like what she means with "companionship" is that she's comfortable with the convenience of having a good father for our kids and my financial contribution to the household. In regard to intimacy and/or sex, she basically told me that its not something she’s interested in or wants at this time. She mentioned that the only way to get to a point for any of that is to be intoxicated which o believe is incredibly awful and very wrong. I told her I do not think forcing herself to have sex or be intimate by drinking or smoking is good and I declined to be a part of that which to my surprise, it upset her and made her more distant.
We're both extremely honest and transparent. We've never cheated on each other and we are always free to look through each others phones, emails, socials, etc. and we hardly ever do. I asked her if there was someone else and she declined. Honestly, I believe her. We then peacefully went through each other’s things and as expected, it was clean. We've always been very forward, even with the hard topics so I don't smell nor feel any foul play or infidelity.
Am I wrong for declining to only be intimate or have sex when she’s intoxicated? (I'm firm on my stance of not partaking in this "only when I'm high or drunk" sex because it doesn’t sit well with me.) I do not know how to help our situation and I'm starting to become a bit anxious and desperate. We're both fairly young and healthy individuals and good looking. We both have good standing careers and are good parents. I'm just not sure how our lives could have driven us to this point. I'd love some outside perspective on this matter and some insight on how to location something like this. It feels so awful to be unwanted and undesired by my own spouse. I hate it.
tl;dr: My wife of 15+ years is no longer in love with me and doesn’t know way and now says she can only have sex while intoxicated or I need to settle for a platonic sexless marriage and she doesn’t know why that is but it is what it is and I'm in need of insight or advice.
RELEVANT COMMENTS/MISSING REASONS
Commenters looked at his history and found they were swingers
We did some swinging in the past. That was fun for some time. We mutually decided to stop doing it and we have established it’s not the case. When we were swinging however, our marriage seemed to be in a good place. This IS something we did disclose with our couple therapist and made sure to include it to make sure we’re not neglecting an obvious potential issue.
I will say, I did ask my wife if what she experienced during swinging is something that is affecting her view on our relationship and she said it wasn’t. Our swinging experience was always together and it was very sex driven. Nothing really emotional or “poly”. Truth is, I have to believe her at her word. I have no reason to distrust her. To date, she’s always been very forward and never afraid of dealing things head on. No matter how painful.
If this is a consequence of swinging
This issue existed long before the lifestyle.
&
I agree that swinging wasn’t a solution in the end. Never was meant to be, it was more of discovering or exploring if she felt any different. If that was the case, we agreed we would talk about and if we arrive at the conclusion that “myself” is the problem and she has no problem with other men, we would amicably part ways. However this wasn’t the case. She didn’t like sex nor intimacy there either. She was very much in control of that whole swinging situation. And yes, I went along with it. What gives? It felt very organic and it was her “effort” if you will, to discovering more and learning more about our current issue. I saw it as a means of learning if I’m the problem and was very much ready to accept that. It turns out it wasn’t the case.
Six years of miser sound awful. I would very much hate that.
OOP on if the this started when the swinging ended
Finally a comment on the swinging topic with actual insight.
You’re absolutely right about the fact that the swinging experience had things/changes that will impact our marriage and lives forever. For example, the best thing swinging taught us (even above sexual exploration) was the level of transparent and open communication it requires. We would literally have mental orgasms having dialog with such intentionality. We implemented that in ALL our lives and areas including parenting with our children. She even agrees that we’re thankful for that takeaway from our swinging. Honestly, I cannot stress it enough with people here. Yes, we explored swinging, however it was actually a positive experience. When we decided to stop, it was because it felt natural and organic to just do so. In fact, we met with that couple who we mesh super well with the night before. We actually enjoyed the actual friendship and even spent time as vanilla friends. So it wasn’t because of something negative. Wife mentioned that it certainly wasn’t any better and since she’s not enjoying the sex we both agreed there’s no point to this. I agreed and we moved on and we’re still friends with those people because it’s great.
All that said I know, more often than not, swinging causes massive issues. However, this was something we explored in pursuit of a solution to an issue that was present way before. I think of it as taking a “practical” approach to trying to solve the problem.
Update May 15, 2024
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Marriage/s/YlSDQ4nogk
I wanted to give you guys an update of how the therapy session with my wife went this week. Not sure if this is helpful or not but I took many of the responses/comments/suggestions from my initial post and put together some things I wanted to discuss with our couples therapist to help us navigate some of the core issues that may be affecting this situation.
One of the main things that is the "buzz word" of this has been the term "resentment" and it has been really eating me up inside knowing my wife keeps telling me she doesn't know why she's resentful or doesn't know why this is affecting her emotionally/mentally. I brought this up with our therapist once again and resurfaced the conversation about being married for so long (15yrs) and being together since we ere 14yrs old. Our long history of growing up and how having children when she was 19yrs old (me 20) significantly changed the trajectory of our lives. We experience sever poverty and many hardships in the process and we essentially had zero social life for the past 10 years because we were so busy raising babies (2 kids now ages 12 &14). She followed up with tons of questions directly mostly at my wife about her feelings towards this and 90% of the responses were very "our kids" focused. It definitely felt like she was afraid of saying "yes it sucked" because she would feel guilt or shame because it would imply she regrets the kids. I mentioned this in the session and the therapist encouraged her to look at this outside of the lens of being a mother and to try to view it a bit more selfishly and individually and it was very eye opening. My wife mentioned that she was very frustrated with the fact that we did miss out on many things in life. She also was very clear in saying "I do not think I missed out on other partners or dating or partying but I certainly lost all my friends." This was huge because one of the big pieces that has caused a strain in our lives is how silo'd and isolated we've been (again busy raising kids). I followed up by reminding her that it's important to have good friends and to make time for herself and her friendships.
For the past 3+ years, we've had multiple conversations about friends and how it is important to have them in life. Specially when you have similar peers that can help in many areas of life that perhaps we have no experience navigating and even simply for enjoyment. It has always been something my wife avoids, even though she's always been someone who needs that external stimuli. The main reason for her not investing in friends or even herself has always been "the kids." Like I mentioned earlier in this post, 90% of the answers have to relate to "the kids" to some degree.
At this point in our session I started to feel like there was a common denominator (the kids) in most of the frustrations and problems she was experiencing. So I simply asked her "Do you think you may be upset at me because I'm responsible for these kids in the sense that I got you pregnant so young?" I wasn't ready but she said that she was upset at me for that. She also followed up with the fact that she knows that's unreasonable because it "takes 2 to tango." I did feel like it was progress because it kind of gave us something to work on and help alleviate some of these "burdens" so we agreed to invest more time in nurturing good friendships both together and individually.
Towards the end of the session, we began to discuss what actionable items we would take from this session. At this point, it was still all very ambiguous and blurry as to what the outcomes were. I was very direct and very forward in asking my wife what her plan is moving forward. (NOTE: I had decided prior to the session that should my wife say the same thing about being a coparenting roommate that I would take the 180 approach and essentially do me) She started basically saying the same thing, that she doesn't have any desire to be intimate or sexual with me as of now and that she loves me immensely and she feels bad for not being there for me (as mentioned in my first post).
I also brought up the brief swinging that happened, to which for the 50th time said it wasn't a problem. I agree with her on this. This was something that was a "mechanical" approach for a solution to a problem that was very much in existent when we tried this. We (both) really have no issue to this. We know it happened, we tried it and mutually stopped and turned the page.
I also brought up other life events that may cause resentment and really we ended up not getting anywhere else as far as the root for resentment which was discouraging.
I then basically expressed to my wife that I will not be ok with that arrangement. I told her that I've really done everything I can and that this issue really has reached a point where it has nothing to do with me or require me to do anything that I'm currently not doing. I was very direct and saying that I will not be accepting this dynamic and that I need to be with someone who is actively involved in our marriage, works towards resolutions and is very much interested in maintaining an active intimacy and sexual relationship. I expressed how I am not going to be a "convenience" and that there was more to life than being roommates and coparents. I made sure she knows I love her dearly and that I do want this to work for the better. I also told her that I'm fully committed to this marriage so long as she is as well and that is she wasn't, its ok, however I will not be a part of something where these efforts are not reciprocated. I told her I have no plans of leaving, and I do not want a divorce, however, I made it clear that if this dynamic continues that divorce will be the only outcome.
Of course tears were involved and it was a very bleak and sad ending to the session. Still nothing was said and I walked out very discouraged and very determined to start working on the 180 as soon as we left the room. It's painful and very difficult because much of the 180 requires you to be very short and cold and transactional. The saddest part is realizing, this dynamic already is very cold and transactional.
Here is where it gets VERY interesting. I started working on implementing many of the 180 recommendations that same day. I mentioned to my wife that, "hey, things are going to be a bit different moving forward. I'm going to honor her roommate/coparent dynamic without reproach and that it should be no mistake that I am not happy here and I am never going to be ok with it but I am done working on it if she wasn't going to work on it." She agreed and went to bed. I started to build distance and started to basically focus on myself. Very short and transactional. She asked for help on some of her personal things to which I declined and it really shocked her. She was upset saying I was being petulant. I explained to her that, she is now fully in charge of her own life and her own issues. We didn't talk all day and we only spoke when necessary. Few days I keep this going and she's very visibly upset and stressed. I typically react to that with gestures of help or nurturing but I didn't this time. That night she was crying telling me she's stressed and she things something is wrong with me because I'm "indifferent." I simply listened, then I told her that this is the dynamic she proposed and that I'm simply (much like her) taking care of myself and focusing on myself. I'm not going to lie, it has been VERY hard to be cold and distant because as I mentioned before, I love her and I wish I could hold her and love on her. However, I know this is somewhat manipulative in a way just to get her way and still keep me in the friendzone. So I've been staying the course.
We're now going on a week of this 180 and let just say, there has been MANY changes on her side. I think she is starting to realize there is more to me than just "friends and coparenting." I sent her a text a few days ago essentially itemizing bills and separating the financial responsibilities 50/50 and SHE LOST HER SHIT. She basically told me it was "out of left field" to which I responded "hey, friends go in 50/50 and as your friend I expect nothing less." This was very eye opening because it gave me a glimpse of I'm really taken for granted and how her level of comfort and convenience at my expense is really overlooked. I pushed through anyways and basically told her that this is the new dynamic she asked for and that its still a "bargain" because she would have to be 100% if she was on her own.
I'll wrap up with this. While the 180 has been working in many different areas, I am still very much sad about the overall situation. There have been MANY eye opening statements being said and realization that have not been pleasant to encounter. It has also sparked new energy and new efforts on her side as well. She's definitely seeking to talk to me more often and while its hard to turn down, I hope if things improve, this continues to happen. I've also noticed that she's making more time for herself aside from being a mom which is HUGE because she pretty much neglected herself for years. I'm very pleased seeing her be more herself. My hope is that as we work on ourselves, the marriage improves. There really is no telling at this point where this will go. We are very much cordial and amicable even to this day and that's a very good sign. Boundaries are set and expectations are very clear and I feel that no matter the outcome, I will be at peace with everything that has been done. We're still going to continue the couples therapist until we either rekindle our marriage or end up in divorce. I feel like having this nonbiased third party really helps as a witness and as a guide through this. No matter what I will always love my wife, however, I will not participate in a sexless, intimacy less marriage because we both deserve better.
Thank you all for all the kind words and recommendations and feedback. This will be my last post on this topic and I wish you all the best.
TL;DR: My wife friend-zoned me wants to just coparent at my expense but I started the 180 method to try and find a solution because she doesn't want to work on us which seems to be working on getting her out of her rut and helping me discover more about how she feels. Also, therapy is paramount and highly recommend to all couples.
RELEVANT COMMENTS
CatsGambit
So, I'm going to assume that your wife has a lucrative job and you are both going 50/50 on childcare, as you both work and share children. Because otherwise, this approach is just plain financially abusive (and if you're planning on saying "I won't pay the bills unless you have sex with me", sexually abusive as well).
Assuming that is the case and you aren't a total POS, I'm actually interested in how this works out for you. I feel like I'm in an unstated, similar situation- we both work and have blended finances, but we don't go to bed together or eat together, have barely any intimacy (a kiss or two, hugs every couple days), and spend…. maybe 8 hours a week together, just the three of us (him, me, and the toddler). Even less just the two of us- maybe 3 hours a week? Otherwise, he is on his game, or out playing sports, watching youtube, or whatever else he does. It barely feels like a friends situation, let alone a marriage. I'm curious how she handles it, as the spouse that presumably was pulling away first- I hope you keep us updated.
OOP
Yes we both have degrees, good careers and while I make significantly more money, her salary is very proficient and above average. The 50/50 was not to cripple nor hurt her financially (that is cruel) but mostly to send a message on what a “roommate” dynamic looks like in the real world.
I really dislike how people immediately jump to conclusions about the finances as a way of manipulating her. It’s not the case at all. Plenty of money left over after bills. However 50/50 means she has less “whatever” money AND the understanding that roommates share everything equally.
Prior to this 180 approach, we did everything together and with our kids. We always saw ourselves as a “unit” that do things together. Both alone and with the kids too. That’s changed now where I’m choosing to focus on more independent type of pastimes and focus. That is what has sparked her reaction and realization of “there’s more” than just roommates here.
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TheLoneJackal
How does one dump half of the household costs on the other person if they share a lender account? Or are your finances kept separately? Just curious how this would work if applied to my life.
OOP
Excellent question. We shared everything. The proposed 50/50 was suggesting we place the necessary amount to pay bills in the same account and any leftover money can be deposited to a new account. I think this is why she was very upset. She felt a huge loss of control knowing she won’t be able to monitor my finances. Also, she felt a huge loss in her left over money with this arrangement and saw that I would keep significantly more of my own. This is still being worked out because I think she is calling my bluff here but my plan is to notify her next week as I modify my direct deposit and open a new account. It will definitely be more real there.
TO BE CLEAR (for all the trolls here) yes, she will have less leftover money after responsibilities and it’s still enough to live on.
EXAMPLE (for reference): Assume I make $3000 a month, she makes $1000 a month. Responsibilities are $1000 a month. So she’d contribute $500 and I would contribute $500. Where before she would contribute only $250.
This is the last comment I’ll add regarding money and finances. She’s fine and she’s not hurting. I PROMISE
When asked what if she leaves for another man
Interesting. She has no shortage of men hitting on her and we’re by no means jealous people. So I’ve witnessed this multiple times and her reactions are somewhat indifferent. I will say, if another man for her was the answer, she’d tell me or she’d have some inkling maybe?
There’s no telling but I think the problem is deeper than superficial attention from a different person.
&
You might be right.
And if this is the case, so be it. However, I’ll live with peace knowing I left no stone left unturned.CRAZY THOUGHT: I know I would be disappointed and saddened if she did leave for another man that would accept the bare minimum BUT I’d also feel a peace knowing it’s not all my fault (I know I’m responsible in some way to some degree. That’s just marriage). I know sadness and depressing will creep but we’ll both overcome but if this does happen at least there will be clear reasons and clarity as to why it did. Also, I know for a fact it she wouldn’t cheat. We’re both very blunt open and transparent. She would definitely tell me that she wants to step out on our marriage before it actually happens. As would I. We owe ourselves this respect for each other and we actively practice it.
NEW UPDATE
Update 2 July 19, 2024
I debated for a long time on whether to submit an update on this matter. A few significant changes have taken place and I felt it would be good to not only share with you, but also to allow myself to process all of this in a uniform way. We're now almost 9 weeks in on the 180 method I mentioned I was starting and it started to render some positive reactions from my wife. I explained in the previous posts that she started to notice things that she previously took for granted, started to ask more about my whereabouts and also started to notice I would go out with the kids more often without her and she started to invite herself to which I didn't decline.
So much has changed and it has changed for what seems to be for the better. This past Memorial Day weekend, my wife asked me if I wanted to go out for coffee because she wanted to talk to me about something. This was HUGE, because I can't recall when the last time my wife asked to "talk" to me about something important. I must admit, I was very nervous and worried about what this could be about and my mind was racing with the plethora of scenarios of what it could possibly be. Of course I agreed and we took some time away from the kids to have this conversation at a local coffee shop.
The talk was very constructive in nature. There was a ton of insightful information about herself that helped me further understand where she is in life both emotionally and mentally. We summarized what the core issues we are encountering are and she asked me for help! This is NEW, and I cannot tell you how excited I was hearing something so sincere coming from my wife who for the last 2+ years has been absent.
So, after she was through sharing all her thoughts, I proposed a plan that I felt was right for us. This is something that I had been thinking about these last few weeks and I was planning on bringing this up in a few months if I noticed that things were not changing for the better. This "date" felt like the right place to share it since it goes hand in hand with what she talked about, and it also relates to the help she was asking me for.
I started by first acknowledging her feelings and her concerns. I told her they are valid and how she feels is personal to her and that I care that she feels this way because I don't like the thought of her being sad or depressed. I also told her that my goal still is and will always be for us to reconcile and be the "happily ever after" we vowed to be for each other and that my love for her is as strong, if not stronger, as it was the day we said "I Do." I continued the conversation by telling her how I felt about the whole situation (read my previous posts for details) and how it affects me every day. I also clarified some things that she mentioned she was feeling because how I have been very distant and monotone (transactional) lately. I explained to her that I was very much trying to protect my feelings and emotions from the rejection and neglect and that it wasn't personal, it was simply me safeguarding myself because I cannot control her, I can only control myself.
This was a perfect segue way to the core of this approach which is focused on self accountability. I told her that for the longest time I was always working hard to make her happy and do things that I knew she enjoyed or wanted. However, I was always met with rejection and disappointment which caused a load of stress on me. I explained to her that I had to make a change for myself. Afterall, I can only control myself and make the changes that I want for myself. I mentioned how I was starting to implement new habits and routines that help edify me all while still executing all of our shared responsibilities including parenting, finances, and daily living activities. I explained that the goal is to continue to improve myself both as a husband and father, learn more, and be healthier (among other things). She was very receptive to this. She told me that she sees what I'm doing and that she is proud of the changes she has seen. She also told me how she's starting to realize that she feels left behind and that much of the things that have affected her negatively are her own fault. Toward the end of the conversation which was about 3 hours, there was a very high spirit of reconciliation in the room. I told her that my goal is to ultimately make this work, however I was very clear that I was not going to live under the current circumstances. I told her that my heart wants her to be happy even if it means elsewhere and that I also deserve to be happy myself. I also explained that I do not want our children to grow up thinking this was ok or normal because they deserve better as well. She told me she doesn't either, she told me she doesn't know what to do to which I replied, "lets set some clear goals however, the goals will be for ourselves, NOT for each other."
So, here is what we established:
- We are in charge of our own happiness: the key here is that she's not responsible for making me happy, and vice versa. We both need to seek what that personal plan looks like individually. Also, we're both encouraged to include each other in taking those steps if we want, but it is not required.
- We are in control of our own individual lives and our own journey: this means we're both responsible in finding the resources necessary to grow, change and heal. We can definitely help one another when help is requested, however, unsolicited advice or help will not be rendered.
- We are responsible for communicating: this ensures nothing is left unsaid. If it was never brought up or discussed, it never happened. We're not mind readers and we need to take ownership when we fail to communicate.
- Make a list of needs and wants: this gives us both clear direction about meeting each others needs. This also gives us a CHOICE as to what we want/choose to do, compromise on, or decline to do. This list also will not serve as a checklist for accountability! We made it clear we would NOT be bringing this list up for the purpose of arguing, and it was up to the other person to use the list as a tool for expansion, transparency or clarification. We concluded that it was up to us to decide if we will be happy doing these things for OURSELVES because we care, not to simply check a box. This was very important in order to establish long term habits and not short term band aids because you cannot "make" someone change or do something they don't believe is important.
- Established a deadline (Memorial Day 2025)
At the end of the conversation we concluded by setting Memorial Day 2025 as a hard stop to evaluate our lives and our progress. We agreed we would do this with the clear understanding that we will independently decide if we are happy here. If we determined we arent happy, we will be getting a divorce. We would also both assume full responsibility for what happened should we get divorced. For example, if needs were not met, it would mean "my partner chose not to meet them." This places full responsibility on each other in all areas. The whole process requires that if "needs were not met," the next question should be, "did we do everything to location this issue?" If yes, then we will have a clear conscious of what transpired and know we left no stone unturned. IF, however, we "didn't do everything to location the issue," it will mean "the issue was not important enough for you or didn't care to meet those needs." (this goes both ways in all areas, like everything else.) We established that the main motivator for change should be ourselves and that if we did that, we would in turn begin to see beneficial changes towards each other. The goal is to ensure that everything we are doing for one another to meet each others needs is being done because "we WANT to do it for our spouse, not because he/she asked. Isntead, it was done because I know it makes him/her happy and I love seeing them happy." I felt it was important to mention to her that we are no longer "required" to do anything for each other. It is now more of a "I want" to do these things for each other.
Ultimately, I felt the conversation was very positive and productive. Many tears were shed and lots of hugging ensued. I know this doesn't mean or guarantee anything, however, this has never happened before and I can honestly attribute it to the 180 method (I cannot give anymore insight on this method other than its the only thing I did different and something new happened for what seems to be better). I've decided I will conclude and will refrain from this method moving forward as the plan now has changed. I'm planning to devote myself entirely to not only myself and my expansion but to also work on her needs and wants because I WANT her to be happy by my side. She said and agreed she would do the same for herself. We agreed we would help and build each other wherever we request for it and that we will be approaching this as a team.
As of today, some of the biggest changes I have noticed are her commitment to therapy and mental health. She is taking some antidepressants that are helping her. She is also more confident and in a far better mood more frequently. We have started to explore more ways of intimacy in multiple areas such as physical touch and words of affirmation. Sex is starting to make an appearance which is exciting (side note: sex was very very awkward to start when you've ben abstinent for so long). We've also started to workout together whcih is great and have lost weight which is also very exciting. Overall, communication has improved, and I cannot wait to see where this leads.
I hope this helps someone out there. I'm still very much interested in your feedback and thoughts on this. You all have been a huge help in giving me hope and insight into this tough journey. Trolls aside, many of you have really been instrumental in my journey both emotionally and mentally. I will not be providing any more updates until Memorial Day next year. I think its now time to keep focusing on myself and start working on all the new opportunities that hopefully will arise with my wife. I wish you all the best in life and your relationships with those you love.
TL;DR: Our marriage took a turn for the better after the 180 method and we're now working on ourselves, each other and rekindling our marriage. We also set a deadline for next year to either remain together or get divorced.
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